Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Separating Categories w/ Clinic Skip

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    First of all I don't really care or have a opinion on whether we should add a category for no Wolf skip considering I'm doing runs once every 3 months nowadays and all of this doesn't really affect me at all but it confuses me so much why it's such a great deal for some people to have a new category added for those who ask it.

    "I absolutely hate the idea of banning something based off of it being "fun" or not. I don't know how I will like having separate categories but if you guys "need" to have it be separate in order to play the game then I guess I wont be mad.. Though I don't give any shit about the leaderboards besides self improvement nowadays. So I will vote no to any separation just because I don't believe it is necessary."

    Fun is the main reason we even started playing the game or play games in general, started speedrunning it and are still here today, banned quitouts on door because of the fun aspect. Fun is the reason we do everything BB related.
    If fun has no weight on ruling and how runs are done we should allow door quits and spend 5 minutes to reach the dream again.
    If a category gets added it doesn't affect in any way the people that wants to keep grinding the run in the state it is currently in so why be hostile to it ?

    CP AB NQ and CP any% NQ don't make a lot of sense right now and are pretty dead.
    Last edited by ivhen; 03-04-2020, 02:43 PM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Just wanna point out that Cookie clip has no impact on any% old patch as we already had a way to go directly to the Woods and this new skip is at best barely faster (but i doubt it). So i would want the category to remain as it is. It does nothing wrong having all quitouts there if we don't add a new sub category.

      As for any% cp and bl4, imo this skip has enough impact on the route to make it worth a new category, or sub-category since multiple categories are affected by it.
      It is​​ just as impactful as tear drop or wrong warp in other souls game since we're gonna end up skipping the first half of the game.

      I don't see it being as relevant in other categories because the length of all bosses and all achievements runs makes the timeloss/timesave not as important. It is rng, just like cat ring skip in ds2.
      But i can see how grinding for really good times in all bosses would be "not fun" and frustrating with the skip and maybe i'm just biased in those because my pb still sucks.

      I have no opinion about no quitouts category.

      I'll end up running the new any% cp route and hut skip route regardless what is decided here.

      Also we're not bullying cookie for the skip he found. This is an awesome discovery and i'm really glad he did it. Calling this skip cancer is just a joke, just like people are always saying that Dist only find cancer skip.

      Comment


      • #33
        Leaving partial quitouts as main category and all quitouts as the secondary seems like a decent intermediate solution, and I would also put the hut skip route as main for Any% CP, etc.. But I would like to emphasize that for old patch Any%, we have two categories that have the exact same run, with the only diference being that one is a bunch of minutes longer RTA, which seems dumb to me. And some people say that all quitouts should remain because it has an "appeal" because its faster, but the only activity it had in the last 3 years is insilico (and he didnt even have the choice of partial quitouts back then) and the rest of the runs come from dplanet, almaperian and me which happened because of the creation of partial quitouts. So it doesnt seem appealing to anyone so far, which means that you are leaving a category like this one just for the possibility that in the future one or two people with the "fastest time" ethics will want to run it?
        I also love how the people who say stuff like "fun is subjective and shouldn't be taken into account with this kind of stuff" are people who either hasn't run the game in their entire lifes or who hasn't grinded for a good time nor is planning on doing so. This kind of stuff, like new cancer skips being found, affects mostly the top runners, the ones who are willing to spend a lot of their time and effort to get a good run in the leaderboards. The ones that are not affected by it and/or dont care at all shouldn't be telling the ones that do how to speedrun.

        Comment


        • #34
          In my personal opinion making a wolf category for both any% and all bosses is not the greatest of ideas and could be a slippery slope. As an example look at DS3 which had a category that didn't want Vilhelm skip and it slowly just became a conglomerate of other skips (i.e. FKS, Irithyll skip, etc.). What's to say that someone makes hut skip viable or some other skip more viable, would we need to make another set of categories for that too? I think if runners don't want to do wolf skip, then they shouldn't but I don't think it should be placed in a different category if someone wants to do the skip. Otherwise, I think we should have separate categories for other skips...like sewer skip and cookie cancer old yharnam skip...thank you.

          Comment


          • #35
            The difference is that you can practice every other skip in the game for 100% consistency. Also, no other skip saves this much time, and is this volatile. You can save anywhere from 0s-1m, completely independent of your skill. And comparisons to Vilhelm skip don't even make sense, because DS3 runners practiced that to get very good and consistent at it.
            Last edited by Ahady; 03-04-2020, 06:26 PM.

            Comment


            • #36
              That category is supposed to mimic glitchless and has not been introduced solely for vilhelm skip. Initially it wasn't even moderated by ffleret or me, but by the people who wanted it and voted on the rules. If you guys want to keep comparing to DS3 categories then please make sure you know what you are talking about first. I don't mean to be rude but I have seen this quite a lot in the last few days.

              Comment


              • #37
                comparing this to any other game is distracting from the point of this whole discussion. I merely compared NTD and NWW as a means of saying that, yes, other communities ban specific skips for the sake of fun. It wasn't meant as an argument as to why we should separate the categories, it was meant to show that we aren't stupid for even suggesting it. So please, stop acting like other community decisions should have any weight on this discussion. Everyone. It doesn't matter if X community made a separate category but Y community didn't.
                Last edited by Ahady; 03-04-2020, 08:18 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  I can understand the slippery slope argument. I would just say that I trust the community to do better than that and to always look at things as objectively as possible. Skips like sewer, old yarnham, cave skip can be done the same way 100 times in a row in the same amount of time. It just takes practice. Cookie skip is unlike any other in the game so I understand why this discussion is happening in the first place.

                  We are a self governing community. There really isn't a right or wrong answer. It's all about the pulse of the community and the health of the game in the end. We are all here voluntarily. We all speedrun voluntarily. We choose to be active in the community voluntarily. That is what it's all about at the end of the day. It's a living thing and always evolving. We either hold the game to a pure speedrunning "ethics" rules set and let it play itself out or we do our best to manage it and keep it as healthy and fun as possible for everyone. Yes, I do believe fun is worth mentioning here. If nobody ran the game then none of this would matter anyway.

                  Final thought... I never want to discourage people from running the game or skip hunting. This skip is awesome in my opinion. This is part of what I love about speedrunning. I want people to break the game as much as possible. That being said, if we feel that some skips or glitches are better served in their own category, I don't think that is cheating the system or damaging to the integrity of speedrunning as a whole either. This isn't the first controversial skip to come up and probably won't be the last. It's on us to decide where they go and as far as I know all quitouts and partial quitouts are the only thing so far that the community decided to push into their own separate categories. That's pretty good.
                  Last edited by BLTNJ; 03-04-2020, 08:44 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it, so saying that you cannot use other games as a comparison point seems like a bad idea. But referring to bloodborne alone while there may not be other skips that have similar results just look at the orphan fight if you want something that can result in time loss due to RNG. Orphan, in theory, is faster if you fight him without the cheese but if things go wrong (i.e. he uses the lightning scream attack) then the entire fight may end in time loss. I get it that the difference in time is not as significant but it's still something similar. My point is that if you don't want to do the skip because of RNG then you shouldn't punish those who do by making a separate leaderboard.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      The only thing inconsistent about orphan is the lightning attack, so if you die to orphan for any other reason other than that, it's because of your lack of practice or effort, not some mysterious rng factor. This is the case for the majority of the game, actually. This skip on the other hand, can not improve with practice in its current state, and does not benefit from skill. At the moment, it is the only thing in the entire game that requires no effort, for a resulting timesave that is greater than any skip, but needs no practice or effort to perform. I'm utterly sick of the arguments regarding "other rng." You are not required to put thousands of hours of effort to get consistent, but lying to yourself to say that you're doing everything in your power to minimize the luck requried is completely ridiculous.
                      Last edited by Ahady; 03-04-2020, 09:55 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        But isn't that the point? If you get lightning strike it was RNG that determined how the fight went not the skill of the player and then you have to face the second phase of orphan. While someone who uses the knives has no RNG in the fight unless they screw it up. So, if you make a category for wolf skip because its RNG wouldn't you also want to do the same for orphan cheese for consistency?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          orphan lightning might happen 1 out of 50 fights, the clinic clip will lose more time than it saves 5 times out of 10, and only save the full amount at a ridiculously low rate. so 50% of the time, you lose more than a minute, the other 50? you might save anywhere from 10-30s at best. So the determining factor for high level runs would be getting this skip to save a minute, which hardy ever happens. This is obviously a point regarding all bosses.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I guess it comes down to how much of a big deal you think splitting categories is.. But I don't think this skip warrants making seperate categories at all. The skip seems pretty bad but to me its just like yolo rom - a really annoying strat where when your time gets good enough and you get more consistent at doing the route you start to implement it. Making seperate categories for any% cp, all bosses and even AA (I think I saw someone mention AA) is really excessive imo.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I agree with you, but where this differs from something like yolo rom, is that it is completely uncontrollable in its current state. while it is possible that it will be made consistent in the future, it's basically a dice roll. And yolo rom is significantly more consistent than the clinic skip and is far less of a timesave. I guess the main point is that there is a huge benefit to practicing yolo rom, practicing clinic skip? not so much.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X